WATCH POP

Happy Holidays! And thanks to the moderators and all the experts who make this such a super forum.

Mostly I 'lurk and learn' on this site, but I wanted to test new FTP software. And while I'm at it, ask a question about a hallmark on one of my vintage Omegas. My apologies in advance for a long post before I'll finally get to the questions.

Picked up a vintage Seamaster on the 'bay this summer for a very good price. Mint condition with only minimal normal wear marks on the case back. Non-refinished dial - like new, not a mark on it. Nice clean cal. 471 movement (1956 serial# - 19 jewels). After taking it to my watchmaker for an overhaul, he believes it is all original, with the possible exception of the caseback. (He says there's not a lot of evidence of much service performed on it at all). It runs great! +11 sec/day constant variation - when I get the time, he'll adjust it closer to zero. (He's got my 1953 cal 342 bumper at +3 sec/day CV!).

It's a stainless steel case ('pointed' lugs) with red-gold cap and bezel. It's the gold cap I have the question about. If the caseback is not a replacement, on Omega's website, the movement/caseback numbers suggest this watch is the 'De Luxe' model:

MOVEMENT
Caliber number: 471
Central sweep-second hand
DIAL
With hand-rivetted gold hour markers
CASE
Stainless steel
Press-in
Full metal
Round (33,5 mm diameter), press-in case back with "O'ring" gasket.
For leather straps of 18 mm lug-size

International Collection : 1954-1962
Swiss retail price (1959) : CHF 240.-
Also available in 18K solid gold (OT 2802, CHF 630.-), 14K solid gold (OJ 2802, CHF 540.-), and 14K goldcap on stainless steel (KO 2802)

So.. finally, the questions. No 18K goldcap is mentioned on Omega's website - but on the 11 o'clock lug is a very small hallmark that sure looks like Minerva to me.
Is a replaced caseback causing me to lookup the wrong version?
Does anyone know of this watch in an 18K goldcap version?
Just wishful thinking?

Thanks! Crummy scan - but a beautiful, clean watch First off -welcome to the forum., and nice watch. :)

That's not a hallmark on the 11 o'clock lug. It's just a nick. The lugs are common places for "battle damage," and nicks and dings like that in the gold "cap" are not uncommon on the lugs - they can be very exposed when the arm is at the side while walking, for instance, and the 11 and 1 o'clock lugs are toward the outside of the body in many arm motions. Gold caps are typically 14k as they are marketed as more affordable; I've never heard of 18k gold-cap, but I can't authoritatively rule them out. I've never seen hallmarks on gold-cap watches, just solid cases.

The Omega database can be confusing to navigate, but if you select caliber 471 from the pull-down on the main menu, you can easily pull up all the models that used that caliber. This can help with troubleshooting.

The gold-cap model is actually listed at the bottom of the extract you quoted in your original message under "MORE PRODUCT INFORMATIONS (sic)" as case ref. # KO 2802. I think that's what you've got. Since your watchmaker says it hasn't seen much service, I would even speculate that it's original.

Hope this helps,
-r

I think you'ce got "Mechanical watches are so brilliantly unnecessary. Any Swatch or Casio keeps better time, and high-end contemporary Swiss watches are priced like small cars. But mechanical watches partake of what my friend John Clute calls the Tamagotchi Gesture. They're pointless in a peculiarly needful way; they're comforting precisely because they require tending." - WG
How old is my vintage Omega? - Omega Serial Numbers by Year
All the photos were taken before the overhaul. You can see some small dings/scratches on the lugs like you described (they all buffed out beautifully).

In this case -- on this case :-) -- my watchmaker and I are pretty sure this particular mark isn't a 'ding'. It's much more uniform in shape and depth than may appear in the photos. Also it's a clean indentation; deep, but with no gold loss in or around it.

I occasionally see photos of Omegas that have hallmarks on the lugs (i.e. current auctions 5069962309 & 5069989525). Granted, these are solid gold cases - not caps - and the marks are not on top of the lugs. AND, as you pointed out, Omega shows only 14K goldcaps for this watch. So... not logical, and no matter what I THINK it looks like - almost certainly not Minerva. But whether to inform or deceive, it seems clear someone put it there intentionally.

I really enjoy reading your posts. Thanks again for the quick answer to my question. You just need to copy and paste the html tags and just paste them in paragraph forms....

the html tags are those tags where they show you after you hosted your pic... for eg. in www.tinypic.com....

hope that helps!

Happy Watch Hunting!
Jack Happy Watch Hunting! Jack W I've never seen hallmarks on the lugs like that, but then, I don't own any solid gold-cased watches either. :) In fact, if it weren't for the fact both of those examples you gave have them in pretty much the same spot, I would be much more hasty to call them nicks. I even had to go and check mine to be sure there wasn't one I hadn't noticed before.

I think it would be tough to pronounce it from here, but I'm still pretty skeptical of those hallmarks. For one thing, the placement seems really peculiar. Hallmarks, even those on silver teapots and such, are almost exclusively placed on parts that are out of view during typical use. Gold watches typically have them on the casebacks; silver teapots underneath. I'd have less difficulty declaring it to be a hallmark if yours wasn't on the dial side of the lug, or even those examples with the marks on the side - why not put it underneath? I would also have expected a hallmark to be larger and more easily legible. Not much point in a hallmark if you can't see it.

Gold is pretty soft stuff and is easily damaged; in fact, my ~1951 Seamaster Bumper Automatic Gold Top c.353 has a curved-vee shaped nick on the dial side of its 11 o'clock lug. As for the no gold loss - could be it just wasn't hit hard enough or against a softer material like wood. Maybe it was filled somewhat in during a previous repair? Maybe you could get it looked at by a jewelry repair pro and see what they think of it. They might be more familiar will hallmarks and damages in gold.

Also, Swiss movements in watches sold in the US during this timeframe were often cased in the US by US companies to avoid high import duties on complete watches. Even stranger, I even remember reading that a South American country (Argentina I think, but can't remember for sure) required for a time that only gold mined in their country could be used in the cases of watches sold there. So, I suppose there's room for the introduction of all sorts of anomalies too, many of which may be undocumented by Omega.

For what it's worth, I still think it's just an oddly shaped ding.

Minerva and Omega also never had any connection that I'm aware of, so I think that's right out. :)

Hope this helps,
-r
"Mechanical watches are so brilliantly unnecessary. Any Swatch or Casio keeps better time, and high-end contemporary Swiss watches are priced like small cars. But mechanical watches partake of what my friend John Clute calls the Tamagotchi Gesture. They're pointless in a peculiarly needful way; they're comforting precisely because they require tending." - WG
How old is my vintage Omega? - Omega Serial Numbers by Year
The photo is difficult to discern.
For what it is worth, the Swiss National hallmark for 14k gold (between 1881 and 1995) was a squirrel. Assuming the case was a Swiss product, Swiss law always required plated articles to be marked...your case does not seem to meet the marking requirments. You mentioned Minerva. (Assuming you would recognize "Minerva" and not confuse her with "Helvetia", another alogorical figure) "Minerva" was at one time a French National hallmark.

As for "gold capped" again assuming this is a Swiss product, it would (today) be a 14k cap. In the past the cap was of a lower alloy not a greater alloy. There was a mark for gold cap and it was either a “C” or the phrase «coiffe or» and yours is not so marked.

Neither hallmarks nor marks ever appeared on the front of acase. They appear on either, the back of the lugs or the outside of the case back or inside the case.

As I mentioned, I don't know if this will help at all with your pecific questions about this watch but these are the quick rules on Swiss markings. Swiss hallmarks; montres; Swiss made